Rotorway ownership
 

I was looking for some advice on pros and cons on a rotorway vs a certified aircraft like an Enstrom. Also, is mast bumping a thing in a Rotorway?

Re: Rotorway ownership
 

Mast bump is a thing in ANY two blade system.
Enstrom RW , one is certified , one isn’t.

And flying in Alaska in a homebuilt should be done very conservatively. And you should probably put in an ELT!

Re: Rotorway ownership
 

Thanks for the response. I agree that an ELT is a must. I think the geographic location is my biggest fear with rotorway.

Re: Rotorway ownership
 

Bryan, have you ever built or owned and Experimental aircraft? Experimental certified aircraft very much reflect the care and attention of the builder. Someone who builds an aircraft to get flying as soon as possible may cut corners and not put the care and workmanship required into their aircraft. This aircraft will not be as safe as others. However, someone who builds it right and puts the time into building and maintaining it correctly will have an aircraft that is just as safe (if not more safe) as a certified aircraft. So IMO it's not that a Rotorway in less safe than a certified helicopter, it a function of the quality of the build. I have flown Hughes 300's, Hueys, HH-53's, and Blackhawks. My Rotorway design-wise is just as safe as anything I have flown. You just have to make sure it was built correctly, you put the required time into maintaining it, and you fly it correctly.

Re: Rotorway ownership
 

This is so not true and will get people killed. I dont care if you put a team of engineers and every rotorway expert together to build a ship. It will never even come close to the safety and reliability of ANY certified helicopter.

Bryan, guys like Homer and Orv will tell you the honest truth of what a rotorway is and is not. Some other 'builders helpers' dont do this.

A rotorway is the best kit helo in my opinion, but it still should be treated MUCH differently than a certified ship. Had this discussion way too many times. The guys who think this are either lying (because perhaps they have something to gain from telling you this), or they just dont know any better and are dangerous for that reason.

For ref, Com CFI helo. Built a Jet Exec (which from my perspective now is even more unreliable than the stock RW) although far more capable if something does not break ;) . Was part of the RW community for a bunch of years and had many friends with stock ships.

Have a safe 2022. Be careful. Pick the right ship for the mission.

Re: Rotorway ownership
 

IMO you are wrong. My comments will not get anybody killed. Notice I did say the Rotorway had to be maintained and flown right. I didnt say anything about reliability. And since you feel it necessary to throw credentials around: Just for reference I am a CFII Helicopter, CFII Airplane, Commercial helicopter airplane and glider.


I do agree with your statement to pick the right ship for the mission. But, I stand by my statement that a well built and maintained Rotorway is just as safe as anything I have flown - when flown correctly. Otherwise, I would not fly it.

Re: Rotorway ownership
 

Unfortunately you are wrong. You could not be any more wrong either. For a guy who has been around aviation as long as you have, you obviously have not been around the rotorway long enough.

It is the best kit helicopter you can buy, but in NO WAY is it as reliable and safe as a certified if built to even the highest conditions.

You can start from the limited cyclic. How many certified ships you see with a weight you move around from solo to dual. I have seen a few roll overs as a result of this limited cyclic. Land, and winds shift. Go to lift off and guess what, you dont have enough cyclic to keep ship from rolling.

Then you can talk tail rotor authority.

Then you can talk power plant reliability. How many certified engines need rebuilt at 400-500 hours?

Then crazy things like the upper engine mount (which you cant see or inspect on preflight) which failed on a friend of mine resulting in belts going slack and luckily he was able to auto.

Looks like you just joined recently. Talk to some guys who have been in this community for 20 years or more. Ask Orv or Homer how many REAL autos they have had to do in a RW.

I know many 20,000 hour pilots who have only flown certified ships. I only know of a few incidents of those pilots having to perform an actual emergency landing.

I would be very careful if you convince yourself that your ship is as safe as a certified because you built it well. Hate to see those guys doing confined work in RW or things that are very close to the flight envelope that they dont even realize.

Be safe. Enjoy. Just dont kid yourself.

Re: Rotorway ownership
 

OK, So you are saying the Rotorway design is unsafe. Wonder why you fly it. I never said anything about reliability and the need to properly maintain and fly it in the proper envelope.


BTW - No need to name drop: I know Orv (flown both his ships and he gave me my insurance checkout) and I respect Homer's advice on this forum. You and I just disagree. Unfortunately, we probably just frightened a potential Rotorway enthusiast away.

Re: Rotorway ownership
 

Been many years away from here and reading comprehension seems to be just as bad.

I am did not say it is 'unsafe'. I am saying it is the 'best' kit helicopter you can buy.

But 100% no if ands or buts should one confuse that it is as safe and reliable as a certified ship (no matter the build quality). PERIOD.

It is not, and anyone who would say otherwise is either mis-informed, or otherwise lying because perhaps it is in their best interest.


I have no dog in the fight. I stated that I built a Jet Exec, which in retrospect is even more unproven than the orignal RW kit. FAR more capable, but still some big issues.

In the end, I learned that the things that I would want out of a helicopter, I could not or should not really do so in an experimental.


Years back I wrote a very long post about what I felt a RW is and is not. What I came to feel, is that if the build portion is as important and enjoyable to you as the flying, then it might be a great consideration. However many people come into this thinking it is a less expensive way into flying helicopters. I contend that is NOT the case by any stretch. Especially when one accounts for their own time.

If I talked some guy out of a Rotorway because he wanted to fly in remote parts of Alaska over unforgiving terrain (I dont know actually) then I did a really good thing and perhaps saved him a lot or aggravation and maybe his life.

This place continues to be filled with people so in love with what they build that they are unable to be honest of what it is and what it is not. That is dangerous to me.

Good luck in anything you do. Fly safe.

Re: Rotorway ownership
 

@Tim

If you dont believe what I am saying, do a poll of higher time guys in RW and see how many autos they have done.

Then do the same of the certified world.

Apples and oranges and two completely different orders of magnitude ESPECIALLY when compared PER FLIGHT HOUR!

Be safe. But dont kid yourself.

Re: Rotorway ownership
 

Justin, I am not kidding myself and my "reading comprehension" is just fine. No need for personal attacks. ALL Experimental accident and incident rates are higher than certified aircraft. But you just made my original point. "Experimental aircraft very much reflect the care and attention of the builder". The accident / incident rates are higher per flying hour because people do not respect them, build them properly, maintain them or fly them within their envelope. Hell there are videos of people teaching themselves how to hover. Personally, I feel just as safe flying my Rotorway as I did the Blackhawk. 20-year old kids maintained my Blackhawk; I feel safe in my Rotorway because I maintain it.

Re: Rotorway ownership
 

I would like to hear from some of the high time people on this subject.

Re: Rotorway ownership
 

I am sorry, but that statement alone completely discredits you. And if you fly your rotorway with that mentality, you may be one of the people who does not walk away that unfortunately we read about from time to time.

So to illustrate your point, there was a guy who is no longer with us name Bill Orth. He was a factory instructor at RWI and VERY accomplished pilot. I was lucky enough to get to know him pretty well. He was a fantastic guy and participated in this forum despite the higher-up at RWI not always being happy about it because he spoke the truth about what the RW was and was not. So he was flying factory built and maintained ships. I cant remember the exact number, but he told me how many autos he had to do....and it was QUITE a few.

I hate to say it, but I know there is no convincing you. But people like you are a danger to others since you put this absolutely ridiculous ideas in peoples heads. I love Orv. Have not spoken with him in a few years, but he is a great guy to speak with on how a guy with many thousands of hours approaches flying in a RW. It can be done and done while minimizing risk as best one can. You certainly do not fly in the same way which would be perfectly normal operations for a certified ship.


I hate to keep going on, but go do some slope landings in the RW, and oh yea, while you were parked enjoying the day, the winds have now shifted and you have a 15kt tail wind. I hope you are not stupid enough to try to lift off.

In a certified ship, It would be a total non-issue. Something to be aware of, but nothing unsafe about it.

Dont have the interest to e-argue with a guy who can only be described as smoking crack with your statement that you feel as safe in your RW as you did a Blackhawk. Unless you meant flying it behind enemy lines while taking enemy fire, your statement is ludicrous.

Re: Rotorway ownership
 

Your right, I’m wrong.

Re: Rotorway ownership
 

Good, now that is settled ;).

But dont take my word. Go ask anyone who has been around the rotorwary community for many years. Try to find one person who will publicly make the statement that a Rotorway built to it's best standard is as safe as a certified ship.

You wont find any. If for some reason you might get a guy to kind of agree, I guarantee he makes his living off selling others this dream.

That is the cold hard reality. Dont take my word. I have only been around the rotorway community 20 years. There are guys with MUCH more experience than myself!

Nothing personal, but your ideas are dangerous and I feel the need to say something when I see stuff like that.

Re: Rotorway ownership
 

Now I have to go smoke some more crack.

Re: Rotorway ownership
 

8 hours, bottle to throttle ;)

Be pissed off, but again, find a guy who has been around these for 20 years and see if any will make the statement that a perfectly built RW is as safe as a certified. You wont. Dont shoot the messenger. I hope it makes you think and you have many safe enjoyable years in your Rotorway.

Re: Rotorway ownership
 

I have been doing the Rotorway thing for about 44 years starting in 1978 with a Scorpion 133. My conclusion is that there is a lot more to safety than just the nuts and bolts. That is why certified helicopters can and do fall out of the sky and some Rotorway pilots live a long life to tell of the wonderful flying they have experienced.

Re: Rotorway ownership
 

Just got done writing a long post and the machine said it couldn’t print it for some reason I’ll try and remember what I wrote and do it again using the voice app which I never use last year when I got ready to load my ship on the trailer I noticed a faint smell of rubber burning and a noise that sounded a little different turned out the bracket that holds the belt tension on the water pump and alternator had broken and the alternator was rubbing against the main drive belts. How do I continued had I continued I will could’ve had some serious issues and it’s not for an incline sang how do I continued with this condition I could’ve had serious problems imagine how I had been in the 50 miles in the outback or the wilderness of Alaska and not being able to sit down and look at my problem. This would not have been good. Over the years I have dropped two exhaust valves in different engines both engines had no problems that’s known problems so it was really no great surprise when these happened. These machines are much safer than they were 20 years ago but we must realize that we do not have a certified aircraft engine or little engine is under good bit more stress than a certified helicopter engine. While the engine is much better than it used to be it’s still does not live up to white a certified engine is. Our ship is very safe for a new student or pilot it doesn’t have any unusual flight characteristics that would kill you if you made a bad mistake. For this reason it is a great starter helicopter for someone that tonight jump right into a certified helicopter the expense is much less and makes it available to the common man. But failure to realize that the machine has more risk could be fatal. We must operate these machines in a much more conservative manner to make sure that we are safe. Bill or‘s that’s ORTH I believe it was trying to tell us that we should fly our machines like they were made of glass that was one of his mini statements and he was probably right or machines are probably more fragile than certified machines as much as we would like them to be it just isn’t that way.

Re: Rotorway ownership
 

I’m not going to go back and fix all the errors and the stupid machine did but you get the idea

Re: Rotorway ownership
 

Homer. Hope you are well. Was talking about you last night. We watched a Jeff Dunham special w/ my inlaws and I told the story how he came to the fly-in and the old VHS tape you had of him performing. Fun memories.

Anyway....I am a nobody in this community but anyone who even thinks about owning a RW should know who you are. I have always appreciated the guy you are and the path that you plotted for all of us that followed.

Thank you for sharing your opinion. Bill was a cool guy for sure. I love that he came on here and shared info (as best he could). I got to spend a day with him when I ferried a 22 back from Vegas many moons ago. Plus the time at the fly-in, he was really a guy to be missed.

All good here. Wishing everyone a safe and happy new year. Feet have been on the ground for a while here. Racing cars these days with my 14 year old son. Always pictured I would be teaching him to fly but his passion for cars has rubbed off on me. Life is good!

Re: Rotorway ownership
 

Hang in there Buddy, glad to hear from you. Many on here don’t know your history and can’t appreciate the knowledge. We’ll keep trying to keep them reasonable safe and still enjoy the thrill of flying .
My twin grandsons are 15 now and I want them to fly, but I hope they can move up someday to certified machine for any career moves . They fly the RW very well now, but always worry that something could happen if they started flying a lot.

Re: Rotorway ownership
 

The two valves I dropped were in engines that had some issues. So it wasn’t a Big Surprise when they failed. Certified engines drop valves too, but it can many times be traced back to way they were operated. We should never shut our engines down without a proper cool down.

Re: Rotorway ownership
 

Homer thanks for all you have done for the Rotorway community. The work you have put into it has been invaluable. These machines do have to be flown conservatively. And they have to be well maintained and cared for. I knew a fellow that kept his Exec stored outside with a John Stump cover on it. It was outside in all kinds of weather and thunderstorms and wind with only a string holding the blade to the tail boom. He wanted me to go flying with him. I told him it was not going to happen. He died when his chopper came apart at 300 ft and fell to the ground. Safety has to be on our minds at all times if it is a homebuilt or certified machine. I also remember a fellow near here that was killed when he was hot dogging it in a Hughes 500 and ran it into the ground. Helicopters are very thrilling to fly but they can hurt you.

Re: Rotorway ownership
 

This will come across stupidly no matter how I phrase it. But I appreciate what ALL of you have to say in this discussion. A dozen times I have considered cancelling my RotorX kit order. The prospect of undertaking such a project is not a comfortable one. Discussions like this one definitely DO NOT make the prospect more comforting. But the fact that experienced builders continue to BUILD, TEACH, INSPECT, MAINTAIN, and FLY these machines IS a comfort and a dose of reality. So thank you all. Keep sparring. It helps.

Re: Rotorway ownership
 

Every helicopter pilot should be VERY WELL trained for engine outs. In the earlier days this was the most common reason for forced landings and crashes. Frankly, the ignition system were junk. Since 1990, this hardly EVER is the reason .

If your flying your ship conservatively, and not over a National forest or Lake Michigan, an engine out should not be to big of a deal. Our RW’s auto reasonable well, and with good training no should ever be hurt from an engine out.

Will expand on these thoughts later, I’m presently working on a new Talon kit in Fla with its new owner. Just not enough time anymore.

Re: Rotorway ownership
 

:yeahthat:Exactly! What I guess I was unable to convey in my earlier posts is that I do not fly ANYTHING unless I feel SAFE doing so. All aircraft have limits and all pilots have limits. I have seen certified aircraft that where piles of junk and not maintained well. I have seen experimental aircraft that are pristine. I think the Rotorway is a great design but it must be built properly, maintained, and flown within it's limits. If I did not feel safe flying my Rotorway I wouldn't.

Re: Rotorway ownership
 

Just want to not get confused. The rotorway is the best kit helicopter period. The most critical parts, the rotorsystem and blades are about bullet proof. (except for it's limited articulation which is about 1/2 of what certified ships have). Which is why you have ballast and have to be MUCH more careful how you operate in cross / tailwind situations, slope landings etc.

When Orv was down in my neck of the woods we were all out flying together. I was surprised, but he truly followed roads and fields ALL THE TIME. He also was flying about 200' higher than I usually flew.

Talking with him, I came away with a ton of respect for a guy who has 'been there, done that'.

So the answer from many guys with good experience is the rotorway can and indeed be a safe helo, it is not to be treated like a certified ship. Not a bash or RW at all. A helo is an incredibly demanding mechanical device. The fact that you can even build a capable one is amazing.


I built an experimental and after doing it, I realized I did it for the wrong reasons.

I THOUGHT it would be more affordable. I however did not account for the MASSIVE amount of time one dedicates to the project. If you are like me, you will want to learn and explore many paths during construction. After all, you are putting your life on the line.

I also underestimated the personal cost and sacrifice of time. I spent many many hours out in the garage working on it while I had young kids at home. I was too deep into it to stop working on it, but it caused a wedge with me and my wife. I really just wanted to be flying, but I had to build it.

Lastly, I dreamed I would be flying it just like I pictured flying a certified ship. Despite some VERY high time pilots advising me against it, I still held the dream it could be done.


In the end, my advice is the Rotorway is for a guy who wants to build it as much as they want to fly. You will spend many many more hours building the ship than it will ever fly. Thousands of hours if you are a detail oriented guy. If that is not part of what you are dreaming of, perhaps you might re-consider. I remember seeing the RW add with the guy fishing in a river where he just set his helo down. Go into fully knowing what it is and is not.


None of what I am posting is negative. The rotorway can be a good and enjoyable ship for people. Personally, I found out that what I wanted out of a helicopter, I could not really do in a RW, or do it with the margin of safety that should be taken.

Good luck whatever direction you go! Just dont forget, the build should be as important a factor in your decision as the flying. You will spend a lot more time building it!

Re: Rotorway ownership
 

Hi Justin, I am nowhere near a old helo guy with knowledge but I disagree with you that cost is as much as a certified helicopter with a Rotorway.

The Rotorway is the ONLY helicopter that permited me to own one. Why ? Because first the purchase price is much less. Second, the maintenance can be done by yourself.
MY TIME IS FREE.

I looked at the possibility to buy a what I felt was the cheapest certified helicopter to BUY on the market. The Enstrom. I found one at $75K canadian and went to look at it. I was pleased with it and started to check the feasability of the project.

I know a few owners who like them and we have a local certified mechanic that is licensed for Enstrom and had a good discution with him and we both thought I could be own one of these for a relatively reasonable fee.

I then started to calculate the real cost of owning one. When I looked at ALL the scheduled maintenance It was clear it DIDN'T COMPARE AT ALL with the Rotorway. If some of you think Rotorway parts are expensive check with certified ones.

I now know that to own a certified helicopter I would need to be a partner with two more guys. An some of us for some reason don't want that.

Re: Rotorway ownership
 

Love the registration call-sign!

Re: Rotorway ownership
 

Claude, much respect, and I can see your point, but I dont know that the math is that cut and dry. I guess that is assuming all your time is free?

I know that if I paid myself $15/hour for every hour I spent learning, reading, building, testing, fixing, I probably could have paid for a nice R22 Beta. Something with time left on blades but perhaps one that has been 'feild' overhauled. Enstrom is good too.

Also look at the value of the asset. I am assuming the next cost of a Talon is 95k, plus the builder will have probably 10k in misc, radios paint, etc. In the end, they have 100+k in a ship that MIGHT bring 50-60k on the market used.

Certified are not like that. Your money is 'safer' and more predictable in that investment.

Dont get me wrong, the desire to build a ship you can fly is an alluring one. I fell HARD for the idea even though many around me that are high time pilots all tired to talk me out of it. I did not listen either. That is why I am simply sharing that for me, the rotorway is the perfect ship for a guy who the build is as important as the flying. I think building one because one thinks it is 'cheaper' will find the math does not always add up.

Good luck and fly safe!

Re: Rotorway ownership
 

For me it comes down to maintenance. Even if I could afford an R22 mechanic, there is still the inconvenience of getting him on my schedule and getting him to Blairstown. If I really in my heart of hearts wanted a machine to take camping, I would build an RV or Super Cub derivative. To be honest I did start with that fantasy—hovering over to my very own spot on the beach. But after having flown the R22 for 45 hours I see how impractical it is even with the dependability which comes with a certified machine powered by a Lycoming. Helicopters are the very image of impractical. But they are fascinating and fun. I hope to learn a lot and maybe get 100 hours or so of occasional flying. If at that point I sell at a $40k loss then I hope I can still look back on the experience as a positive one.

Re: Rotorway ownership
 

Eric, did you have a Helicycle?

Re: Rotorway ownership
 

Hi Homer. Nope. Not me. I looked into the Mosquito (which I really like). The helicycle seems OK but I am not interested in the Solar motor. I opted for RotorX after talking with you and other owners. The first stage should arrive in a few weeks.

Re: Rotorway ownership
 

OK, got you mixed up with another Eric that’s up your way. You should be happy with the RX/RW. Good choice.

Re: Rotorway ownership
 

Eric,

Sounds like you are on a great path!

Just to clarify, R22 100/hr annual inspection can be done by most places in a day. Sometimes day and a half. Places are around $1000 for it just for reference. Heck, I have flown 22's coast to cost and north to south. Nothing to hop in an fly several states over if you somehow lived in a very rual place.

To others who say how much more expensive certified ships are, I saw a 22 beta II w/ 250 hours before overhaual and 6 years left on blades for 70k.

250 hours is a LOT of time. You see some guys not fly their rotorways that much in 5 years. You can buy that ship for 70k and start flying. Pay 1000/ year for annuals. Worst case you have to ream a valve but never had an issue and ran 'avblend' in the oil. Good cooldowns help also.

My only point being, 'because it is more affordable' is not always an accurate reason for choosing rotorway. My guess is the difference of someone buying that 22 vs building, the 22 will be 10,s of thousands less after 5 years and then sell them both. NOT counting the time it took to build it.